Little Frog in High Def

huh?

How’s that helpful to anyone?

I added my comment to the post so that more people would see it if they too were confused…and I can see why it would be confusing.

Well, for the record it was helpful to me even without the added comments, but I appreciate the clarification. I work with 30p footage a lot, and love it. Highly under-rated IMHO. Thanks for bringing attention to this Shane.

Matt Jeppsen
http://www.FreshDV.com

Yay! More misinformation about 24p & 23.98!

23.98 is incredibly easy to work with if everyone in your workflow is working in it. All capture cards, and FCP itself will add pull-down automatically. Unfortunately it requires a understanding of what pulldown is, and how to work with it.

But my questions is, what 30p are you talking about? Shooting 30p on your DVX? Editing in 30p? In what situation?

This is the kind of misinformation cause producers to pickup buzzwords that make my life a living hell as an online editor.

DESIGN A COMPENTENT WORKFLOW should be the mantra not stupid ad hoc buzzwords stolen from a producer who’s amazed at the results of finally having a compentent workflow.

Sorry to flame you a bit shane, but things like this get under my skin and make my life harder.

“what 30p are you talking about? Shooting 30p on your DVX? Editing in 30p? In what situation?”

The 30p that is progressive, as in 30 progressive or full frames and not 60 interlaced fields. Progressive, but still 29.97. For people who need to deliver a 29.97 master (a MAJORITY of people in broadcast TV…vast majority) this is a far easier format to work with then shooting 23.98 and working with 23.98 and then needing to deliver a 29.97 master.

30p shot on DVCPRO 50, or DVX-100b…or any other camera capable of 30p.

Not everyone needs to deliver an HD master…And standard def frame rates don’t include 23.98.

And I fail to see how “30p” is a buzzword that will confuse producers. IN fact, I think that 24P is confusing producers who want the film look and think that they can ONLY get that by shooting 24P at 23.98, THAT is the danger.

I am working on a show right now that wants the film look, and we know that we are delivering a digibeta master, so…

It all depends on what your deliverable is. If you are delivering a 29.97 SD master, shooting 30p and editing at 29.97 is a far simpler workflow that working with 24p.

Shane (and others),

The confusing thing about all of this is that there is a TRUE 24p frame rate and a TRUE 30p frame fate. There’s also 23.976 (commonly referred to as 23.98 or 24p), which exists for the sole purpose of being able to display 23.976 in a 29.97 world, and of course the 29.97 that we all know and love (sort of).

Working with 23.98 and mastering to 29.97 is not really an issue. The workflow has existed for years and years. That’s what pulldown is all about.

I agree that 24p often confuse producers, and if you want the ‘film look’ Why aren’t you shooting in 23.98?

The issues with 23.98 come in when you have a graphics dept. that is delivering elements in 29.97, that you have to marry to a 23.98 timeline.

I’ve been mastering from 23.98 to digibeta for years, and there’s never ever been an issue from that front. FCP adds pull-down just fine.

Also, 30p definitely does not have the same value of motion that 24p does. Yes, it will be progressive, but it won’t have that filmic motion blur that comes from a capturing motion at 48hz. You simply will not get ‘the film look’ because a big part of the ‘film look’ is the way your camera resolves motion and there’s simply a big difference between 60hz, 1/60th of a second shutter speed image and an image at 1/48 of a second shutter speed.

What we subconsciously associate with a filmic look is that 1/48 of a second feel.

Look at side by side comparisons of the same thing, and you’ll see that 24p look far more cinematic. Shoot them side by side and you’ll see.

I can see that in certain situations 30p might have uses in certain broadcast situations, where you don’t want to have a completely different feel from broadcast footage, but for my money, I’d shoot 24p adv or psf, if I was working on a something to possible film out, and simple 24p with pulldown, and just work in a 2997 timeline if I knew there was a need to marry with a effects house or a graphics package that wasn’t in the deal.

Even sending DVCam to the soundmixer isn’t a big deal because 23.98 translates to 29.97 pretty easily, but if you’re cutting in 29.97 that isn’t even an issue.

I also totally agree with dan, Getting footage that is in 24.0 or 30.0 as opposed to 23.98 or 29.97 and dealing with fixed time projects that were edited in non-drop, or edl’s that magically flip between the two have always been 10x more painful than 23.98/29.97.

I hate to further pile on Shane here, but I have to agree with everyone else here. There is nothing difficult or problematic shooting and editing in 23.98 and mastering out to 29.97, at least in FCP. The last 4 commercial spots I did were all shot 23.98 on both HVX200’s as well as Varicams. You ingest with the proper capture preset, edit in a native 23.98 timeline, playback and master to 29.97 NTSC output with pulldown added. I don’t see what the big deal is.

I used to prefer 30p workflows (and I agree that it’s easier to deal with than 23.98, if only because I’ve worked at 29.97 since my linear days, 16 years ago), and there are certainly times when shooting that way is preferable to avoid the judder you can get at 24, but every director I’ve worked with over the years has been able to tell the difference between 24p and 30p, so it’s simply not correct that 30 yield the “same film look” as 24.

One other advantage to working at 24/23.98 is that you have 6 less frames per second to deal with (and render) if you’re doing VFX, roto, colorgrading, etc. As a finishing editor, I’ve finally gotten to the point where I now prefer working at 23.98.

Pile it on all you want. I too work in 23.98 and deliver both HD and SD masters. But I also know what I am doing and have done many tests. The point is, that if you go into this without knowing the issues, without having a workflow down, you can get stuck. That shooting 30p and editing at 29.97 from the start is easier and causes less confusion.

And is ALL depends on the format you shot. Getting good 24p from HDV is a task, where DVCPRO HD is a snap. And seriously, I can see shooting 24p at 29.97 (ie, NOT 24PA) as a far easier thing that shooting 24p, removing the pulldown, editing 23.98, then outputting 29.97. Why go thru the added steps when 24p at 29.97 looks the same as 24p at 23.98?

how can you shoot 24p @ 29.97?, or is that a typo

I heard that 30p is good for web content based @ 15 fps.

Not a typo. Many cameras shoot 24p at 29.97…that is normal 24p. It is the “film look” but with the standard frame rate.

Read this:

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/24p_in_FCP_nattress.html

I'm shooting 720/24p with an HMC-150. All the footage will be edited in a 23.98 timeline.

This is for both HD broadcast in the US and PAL broadcast in Europe.

Will the outputs/mastering be problematic in any way… It is essential that this has the 'film look' (also shooting with 35 adapter and primes)

I would also like to include some slow motion. Should I shoot that at 720/60p then import directly into 23.98 timeline – or is there a conversion I need to do — or a better way to get slo-mo — It seems the 24p slo mo isn't ideal…

thanks.
please feel free to email me at jaredpscott(at)yahoo(dotcom)

Jared, that is a question you should post on a help forum, like CreativeCow.net. You'll get more responses…from more people.

thanks. will do. any thoughts…
best.

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